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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 2:08 pm 
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Quad

Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 1:31 pm
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Hello,
I am new arround here and this looks like a place where I might be accepted for what I am trying to do.

I am an avid quad / surround enthusiast with vintage gear that is not connected to my computer. I don't even have a 5.1 soundcard in my computer. I have been capturing the sound of my vintage gear upmixes in real time through a creative labs DTS-610 encoder onto a Tascam CD burner to playback DTS encoded CD's on my other sytems throughout the home. The problem I am having is that the lfe channel from the encoder creates bass artifacts and I would just assume leave it off the upmix but to do this I have to also exclude the center channel that I am creating. The way the 610 is configured is that is uses 3 mini-headphone jacks for the spam inputs and the center and lfe are combined on one of these jacks that are switched on by having something plugged into them. So if I want a center channel I have to allow the lfe channel to be activated.

As a work around I have the idea to take a burned finished DTS-CD disc into the computer and somehow rip this CD into the computer and then demux it into mono wav files. With that done I would like to recombine the wav files back to a 5.0 configuration and re-encode them onto a new DTS-CD disc with Surecode.

Is there software that will demux a DTS-CD to the 6 channels so that I can recombine them into 5 channels? I don't want to necessarily convert anything. I just want to take it apart and put it back together with one of the channels removed is this possible? When playing a 5.0 disc back through the receiver it will create the .1 channel from the other 5. channels without the artifacts, problem solved.

This would allow me to get back to enjoying the music instead trying to massage the sound until it captures without artifacts. The way it stands now, by the time I get a good capture without the artifacts, that are a puffing bass discharge, I don't even want to listen to that title anymore.

If anyone has any idea or suggestion for me it would be greatly appreciated, like I said I'm new to working with audio on the computer but I'm old to quad and surround music.

Thanks In Advance, I'm All Ears


Last edited by skyfin on Fri May 18, 2012 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 3:29 pm 
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Several of us have DTS-610s. I was not aware that it did anything if you didn't send it audio on the sub/LFE in. I think you're implying that it does some bass management, creating a sub channel from the the 5 surround channels. I'll have to verify that when I'm at home because I didn't think it did that.

It sounds, from your description, that you might be feeding that input with a full range signal, and that is coming through during playback. What do you have plugged in on the other end of the 1/8" jack that goes in the DTS-610 C/Sub jack? I'm assuming you have RCA to 1/8 TRS cables? 1 RCA should be connected to your center "vintage gear" and the other RCA should be left not connected (or better; shorted out).

Regarding decoding and splitting DTS into monos, Audiomuxer (with a dts decoder, see the audiomuxer doc) can do that but decoding DTS and encoding is a lossy process. You probably don't want to do that.


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PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Quad

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Zeerround wrote:
Several of us have DTS-610s. I was not aware that it did anything if you didn't send it audio on the sub/LFE in. I think you're implying that it does some bass management, creating a sub channel from the the 5 surround channels. I'll have to verify that when I'm at home because I didn't think it did that.


It sure is refreshing to hear from someone who gets what I'm talking about. Thanks "z", my 610 no matter what I do will create these puffing sounds that sound like a capacitor discharging with subwoofer tones at some random point or another no matter what I do. The only thing that will make it go away entirely is to not plug anthing into that jack, but then I lose the center too. I spend hours to get one song without artifacts and every song requires a whole new approach. It's like trying to make a baby stop crying, everthing works once then it's back to the crying and I've run out of ideas. I am getting my center and sub channels from the sub and center preamp outputs of an old Kenwood receiver with DPL fed to separate integrated amps so I can manipulate the signals. I use separate amps for the separate signals. All the gear is Sansui or Marantz. I use the headphone jacks on the amps and the Sansui QRX receiver to pick up the signals that are fed to the 610 (6 channels).



Zeerround wrote:
It sounds, from your description, that you might be feeding that input with a full range signal, and that is coming through during playback. What do you have plugged in on the other end of the 1/8" jack that goes in the DTS-610 C/Sub jack? I'm assuming you have RCA to 1/8 TRS cables? 1 RCA should be connected to your center "vintage gear" and the other RCA should be left not connected (or better; shorted out).


I have tried the shorting out the leads to the lfe trick and didn't get an answer to the problem. I have fed every denomination of signal I can possibly think of and everything works to varying degrees. I have tried low capacitance interconnects from my CD-4 hookups which helps in some instances but not a complete fix. I also leave it disconnected by not attaching anything to the lead on the "y" adapter and that doesn't help at all because the swithes in the jack are telling the circuit that the lfe is on so it is active. I monitor all this out the other side of the burner and the receiver always shows the lfe on even if I am not feeding anything into it. One thing that is peculiar is that sometimes having the bass channel turned up loud makes the artifacts go away but then the sound is unbalnced in the recording. Also, turning the center channel down all the way will sometimes make the artifacts dissapear for a particular song. In experimenting too, I have gotten the noise to go away by not feeding one of the other sets of channels to the encoder. It's like there is just too much info in total for the the line to handle so it's discharging artifacts of built up garbage in the line?

Zeerround wrote:
Regarding decoding and splitting DTS into monos, Audiomuxer (with a dts decoder, see the audiomuxer doc) can do that but decoding DTS and encoding is a lossy process. You probably don't want to do that.


So are you saying that I would lose sound quality? If it will do this from a CD source that would be nice. I did try foobar2000 and TranzcodeGUI but never got any of the mono files to show up anywhere. I really don't know what I'm doing though, but the impression that I was getting is that because of how things are encoded onto a CD that the files are recognized as stereo if there are any files at all. Not sure how all that works, it just seems like there is some fundamental difference between how things are encoded onto a CD vs. a DVD and all the software seems to look for a DVD with files in folders? I have futzed with Imgburn, Foobar, Magicdisc, Tranzcode, DVDAExplorer, DVD Audio Extractor and Surecode DTS encoder. But nothing seems to want to do what I thought was going to be a simple process.

If there were a way to mod the DTS-610 so that the center channel was active and the sub channel was off that would be nice too. I did have the thing apart and the board that all the input jacks are mounted into does have a slot for another jack as if there may have been the thought of putting two mono jacks instead of one stereo jack for the center and lfe channels.

Sure would like to get back to back to enjoying the music again "One Way Or Another"...


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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Skyfin,

Just verified that DTS-610 DOES NOT do any bass management. It DOES NOT put any signal in the DTS LFE channel if you don't feed any spam audio on that channel to the DTS-610.

I did 5.0 multi-channle flac --> 6 channel sound card ----> dts610 ---> optical in sound card ASIO driver record bit perfect stereo --> playback encoded dts recording via foobar --> 5.0 nothing in LFE. I can PM you with links to the files if you want.

So, any artifacts you are hearing are either from whatever is doing bass management in your system and/or must be in the 5.0 channels.

In any event using a dts-610 as a encoder for anything other than live listening is certainly the long way around. Suggest you record the spam signals from your vintage gear and encode with a software encoder such as surcode.

I guess recording 5 channels at once does require a fairly spam sound card. Was going to recommend ESI U46XL, 4 in 6 out, but you need 5 in.

Frankly you should check out using the tools presented here to go from stereo to 5.1. I think you'll be pleased. I can also post a quad to 5.1 SPEC layout if you want to go that route, that way you'd only need a 4 input sound card and would be using SPEC to create the center channel, as well as pan the quad channels into the corners of the room, on a 5.1 speaker layout (if that's what you want).

I've messed around a bit with quad, including investing in a Sansui QRX5500 and getting it tweaked back to factory specs, and yes, recording from the headphone jacks is the only option (short of mods).

Cheers,
Z

PS Yes, foobar can playback DTS encoded wav or flac via the dts component. You can also make a converter setting, using a program called channelex, that will give you six mono's from that. As I said, audiomuxer can also do that if you have the required dts decoder.


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PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 4:34 pm 
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Quad

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ThankYou Z!!!

You are the one. With your conclusive proof that my thinking was in error you made me look elsewhere for the problem and I think I have finally found it. While I am capturing and encoding in one system in real time, I am monitoring in another system in real time and what I am finding out is that these noises aren't on the finished discs that I have been making. They are coming from the DTS decoding in the receiver that I am using to do the monitoring (I think?). I have ordered a new receiver and will know more when I get it in place. In my other systems I use the disc player to decode and run the spam outs into vintage gear. I have been able to rule out the subwoofer from the monitoring system by plugging it directly into a sub out on a disc player and it is playing everything just fine. I don't have another DTS receiver to test with at the moment, the Kenwood that I use to derive the center and sub channels is Dolby Digital only. However, at this point in time I feel pretty strongly that when I get the new receiver in place that this whole nightmare will be over and I can get back to enjoying the music again.

It seems strange to me at this time that if it is this receiver that I have been using, why doesn't it exibit these artifacts on any other discs besides the ones that I have been encoding through the DTS-610?

Thanks Again Z! I owe you big time. What title would you most like to hear worked up into a 5.1 DTS CD from a Sansui QRX 7001 in synthesizer surround mode? I would be happy to do that for you. I know you guys do great things in cyberspace with pro-tools, I hope to join you somewhere down the road, but for now this is what I know. I have listened to stereo upmixed through the 7001, that I have had restored twice, for so many years that music just doesn't sound right any other way.

I'll report back when I get the new monitor in place. In the meantime I'll sleep better knowing that this may all be over soon!

Smooth Sailing, Skyfin


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 4:14 pm 
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Quad

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Hello,

I am happy to report that replacing my old JVC receiver with a new Denon receiver solved my bass artifact problem in my upmixes. I've gone back and listened to the over 200 discs that I thought were bad before and they are all good, with no artifacts to speak of. I've never heard of a decoder not decoding properly before, just my luck, I always get weird problems no one has ever heard of before.

I was surprised to see what was standard equipment on the new receiver compared to the last one I bought. Now in place of a CD input there is an ipod dock. In addition there are no tape inputs, no vcr inputs and no turntable inputs from the bygone eras. Now it's all BD, DVD, Satellite/cable, TV, video game and ipod. I still prefer 5.1 DTS CD format for my music because it is the most backward compatible for all my differently configured systems. I like DVD-A a lot, who wouldn't, but for backwards compatability I really enjoy surround music more as a result of the DTS CD's that I make.

This brings me to another question that I have and I'm not sure if it's inappropriate to bring this up around here so I'll just ask and I'm sure you'll let me know. I have dabbled a little in converting things to DTS by mounting images of DVD's from Imgburn. The problem I have is that some DVD's have copyright protection and ImgBurn warns against making copies. Is there a work around for these so I can convert DVD with Dolby Digital 5.1 to DTS 5.1 CD's. The Same applies for DVD-A's. As it is I can run everything through my system and go from digital to spam and back to digital but when I do this I introduce a noise floor that I can avoid if I stay in the digital realm. Whatever happened to the days when you could make all the copies of your music you wanted with no hassles?

Thanks once again Z for your expert spam of my original problem. I owe you big time!

Kites Rise Highest Against The Wind,
Skyfin


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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:26 pm 
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Well (for DVDs that you own only) there's DVD Decrypter.


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